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Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 05 December 2011, 22:19pm
Town Defences
I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts on town defences - how they are after the latest release (something more detailed than "not good enough" would help!), and any thoughts on how to improve them. What are the things that are hard to defend against (e.g. is it raiders with a lot of mages + flame?), and what have you attempts at defence been so far.

The last release was only one step towards addressing these issues.. there will be more in the next release, but your input will help to get it right.
 
Poster: Sartain
Date Posted: 05 December 2011, 22:39pm
Re: Town Defences
My initial impression is that mainly the current update simply made it harder for low levels to conquer towns. For us higher-levels the game is pretty much the same, now we're just steamrolling Elite guards instead of Veteran guards. Also, the amount of money required to fund any sort of meaningful defense seems rather high.
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 05 December 2011, 23:14pm
Re: Town Defences
And traps / buildings are not helping at all? Or mayor's skills?
 
Poster: Sartain
Date Posted: 05 December 2011, 23:32pm
Re: Town Defences
[quote author=Mutant link=topic=181.msg1621#msg1621 date=1323126872]
And traps / buildings are not helping at all? Or mayor's skills?
[/quote]

It's hard to say really, it might have been better to have a reset along with the new update to get a fresh perspective on it. So far as I can tell not much has changed.
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 05 December 2011, 23:39pm
Re: Town Defences
Well, I think it might take a bit of time for people to work out how to best make use of these things.
 
Poster: pelarn
Date Posted: 05 December 2011, 23:45pm
Re: Town Defences
i agree with sartain,for high lvl players its a little bit harder since the update.
i would like to see that groups lvl 20 can BUILD their own towns(expensive),and this towns should be damn hard to conquer for others.only a few towns should be able to enter when the game restarts,and this towns shouldnt be conquered at all,or only with a mass of troops,which can be obtained later when the own towns raise in prosperity.
this would change the daily town change from one player to another,and allow politics to be tougher in the game.
the game as it is now will stuck if every player grows up at least 5 chars to lvl 25 and set them into a town controlled,and then works for the next 5 chars for the next town and so on.
i think you should implement chars to lead armies to conquer towns,and not groups to conquer towns at all,its more realistic ^^
also armies shouldnt have the abilities to fight groups without troops besides the chars,otherwise big armies crushes groups easily,also armies shouldnt have the ability to enter a dungeon,only groups can.
also the respawn rate for monsters in dungeons should be raised,due often when i enter a dungeon,someone was before me(cause i enter the game at german times)and there are no more monsters to fight,so even if i dont want to conquer towns i cant get good xp for my group :)
 
Poster: Zangi
Date Posted: 05 December 2011, 23:49pm
Re: Town Defences
I hit a town with traps, but there were not enough guards to come with it to cause me much problems.  I killed most if not all the guards before too many debuffs got on me.  But, in its favor, I figure it adds up a lot if you stay in the town raid too long.)
(Level 3 traps) 

Buildings, I don't know at all.

Mayor skills may or may not have made the difference for a low level like me.  This neutral NPC controlled town I was trying to raid just before your changes became MUCH harder.  I missed alot more and the seasoned hit me alot more, since I cannot see the skills of this particular mayor.. can't really say how much of a difference it made.
(I attribute not hitting stuff to new changes... my characters are missing a lot more often against stuff I've previously crushed in a few turns...)

These are probably questions best asked for people who are lower level and actually raiding these towns, since more established players like Sartain breeze through whatever defenses currently put up.  Not to mention, they probably have the town map explored before-hand too.

I know for a fact with my party level and makeup, I can beat rookies handsdown, while seasoned are beateable but still hard, veteran packs of more then 2 are out of my reach as of now.
 
Poster: Dies Horribly
Date Posted: 06 December 2011, 20:13pm
Re: Town Defences
Could we set up a nuetral/free town maybe where the traps are lvl 10, the buildings are maxed & there are elite guards as a test?  Someone with a lot of extra cash...I'm thinking Mongoo  ;)
 
Poster: Zangi
Date Posted: 06 December 2011, 20:26pm
Re: Town Defences
A central 'arena' town between the big 3 kingdoms?  Or at least middle of the map? 

Hill Grove, 37,33
Prosperity 6
Tuonela controlled town...
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 06 December 2011, 20:47pm
Re: Town Defences
Just to be a bit clearer about what I'm after here... I'm not really looking for suggestions for new things to make it better... the existing mechanics of the last release haven't really been tested. I'm looking for thoughts on whether it's now possible to defend a town, especially when that town is fully upgraded, i.e. level 10 traps, castle, a smattering of Elite guards, a skilled mayor, a strong garrison etc.

If you have all of that, and you find any old parties (even high level parties) waltzing through your town and taking it with ease, then let me know (please be specific in your examples! sometimes you might think you were hard done by, but you were actually overpowered by a much stronger opponent).

The design of town defences isn't so that you can make a town completely impenetrable. But that you can at least make it damn hard to take it, and that someone of a relatively similar level to you will take some serious damage (i.e. several deaths) before being able to do it. I'm pretty sure that the options available now are enough for that. If not (and if I see the evidence of this), there are some fairly easy tweaks that can be made - within the existing mechanics - to fix that.

That doesn't mean there won't be further enhancements, etc. There are some cool new things planned to make towns even more defendable, and add some more options, etc.

Also note that I'm not expecting to see an end to raiding altogether. Dealing with raiders is part of the challenge of running a kingdom. You should protect your capital and key towns well, so that they aren't susceptible to low-level raiders (you should have the tools to do that now). But you might not be able to afford to upgrade every town, so you might find your borders or weaker towns still get targetted. Maybe you've over-reached? Some parties might make a nuisance of themselves (and there might be some better ways to deal with them in the future), but that's just a fact of life of running a successful kingdom - people will target you. The latest changes hopefully make it harder to cause real damage with random raiding, however.
 
Poster: Sartain
Date Posted: 06 December 2011, 21:52pm
Re: Town Defences
[quote author=Mutant link=topic=181.msg1637#msg1637 date=1323204470]
Just to be a bit clearer about what I'm after here... I'm not really looking for suggestions for new things to make it better... the existing mechanics of the last release haven't really been tested. I'm looking for thoughts on whether it's now possible to defend a town, especially when that town is fully upgraded, i.e. level 10 traps, castle, a smattering of Elite guards, a skilled mayor, a strong garrison etc.

If you have all of that, and you find any old parties (even high level parties) waltzing through your town and taking it with ease, then let me know (please be specific in your examples! sometimes you might think you were hard done by, but you were actually overpowered by a much stronger opponent).

The design of town defences isn't so that you can make a town completely impenetrable. But that you can at least make it damn hard to take it, and that someone of a relatively similar level to you will take some serious damage (i.e. several deaths) before being able to do it. I'm pretty sure that the options available now are enough for that. If not (and if I see the evidence of this), there are some fairly easy tweaks that can be made - within the existing mechanics - to fix that.

That doesn't mean there won't be further enhancements, etc. There are some cool new things planned to make towns even more defendable, and add some more options, etc.

Also note that I'm not expecting to see an end to raiding altogether. Dealing with raiders is part of the challenge of running a kingdom. You should protect your capital and key towns well, so that they aren't susceptible to low-level raiders (you should have the tools to do that now). But you might not be able to afford to upgrade every town, so you might find your borders or weaker towns still get targetted. Maybe you've over-reached? Some parties might make a nuisance of themselves (and there might be some better ways to deal with them in the future), but that's just a fact of life of running a successful kingdom - people will target you. The latest changes hopefully make it harder to cause real damage with random raiding, however.
[/quote]

Well like I said, the game hasn't changed much for the high levels. Lower levels have probably been cut off from the raiding, at least in regards to people who can hire Elite guards and fund them realiably.
I haven't looked into the scope of the tax bonus you can receive from the leadership skill but it looks to me like you'd literally have to invest an absurd sum of gold to be able to protect your town from high level raiders. Even more so since there's apparently a to-hit bug, which means Elite guards will become easier once you fix that, I guess.
Looking at the numbers, say hiring 24 Elite guards. That's 240000 gold already, but you'll probably need at least 3 squads to have a decent chance of raiders even bumping into them before they find the mayor. But since Elite guards aren't really that good, you're probably going to need some PCs garrisoned there as well and since you'll probably want to hire them because your party is specced for adventuring, not town management, so thats somewhere around 35000-70000 gold, per character, as well. Lets say we hire 4 of those at a middling price, thats around 200000 gold more.
But wait, the town can't possibly fund that by itself, every Elite guard costs 150 gold per day, thats 3600 a day. Let's say your town makes you 2600 gold a day after taxes, that's a pretty damn prosperous town but that still eats up the towns entire profit AND costs you 1000 gold out of pocket every single day.

So in the end, to possible protect a town we have a budget looking something like this:
Initial guard cost: -240000
Garrison cost: -200000
Town profit per day: -1000

If you have to pay this from tax income alone, let's say average town tax is around 200 gold. So if you have 20 towns in a kingdom paying an average of 200 each, that's 4000 gold/day or 110 game days to pay for the guards and the garrison of one town. But of course, that's not even counting any extra expenses from healing budget or raiders firing your guards after taking the town (yeah, that will happen), nor does it count the extra 110000 gold expense of paying for your guard upkeep...

So I'm thinking the economics are a bit broken, unless the intent is to force people to aim for conquering the entire map so they can fund the defense of one or two of their towns ;)
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 06 December 2011, 23:31pm
Re: Town Defences
Please don't focus solely on guards. They are only part of your defence. There's also buildings, traps, skills (not just leadership), garrisons (recruitable characters are better now as well, so you can find some good deals). If you find that you have all of that in your town, and it's still getting raided, and wiped clean, then let me know. (With specific examples)

There are also ways to fund towns other than mayor tax, particularly as part of a Kingdom. That said, leadership is a big boost. Of course, you might really struggle to buy all these upgrades, and if everyone else is too, then tweaks can be made. To be honest, I haven't really seen evidence of people trying to use these things yet.

The game mechanics have changed. They're designed so that you don't automatically get benefits, you have to learn how they work, and organise your towns/kingdoms well to get the full benefit. This gives scope for some people to play the game better than others.
 
Poster: Sartain
Date Posted: 07 December 2011, 06:01am
Re: Town Defences
[quote author=Mutant link=topic=181.msg1642#msg1642 date=1323214265]
Please don't focus solely on guards. They are only part of your defence. There's also buildings, traps, skills (not just leadership), garrisons (recruitable characters are better now as well, so you can find some good deals). If you find that you have all of that in your town, and it's still getting raided, and wiped clean, then let me know. (With specific examples)

There are also ways to fund towns other than mayor tax, particularly as part of a Kingdom. That said, leadership is a big boost. Of course, you might really struggle to buy all these upgrades, and if everyone else is too, then tweaks can be made. To be honest, I haven't really seen evidence of people trying to use these things yet.

The game mechanics have changed. They're designed so that you don't automatically get benefits, you have to learn how they work, and organise your towns/kingdoms well to get the full benefit. This gives scope for some people to play the game better than others.
[/quote]

I'm not saying the upgrades should be cheap, I'm saying that if it takes close to 1/3 of a real life year to fund one town's defense the economics might have to be tweaked a bit :) Besides, adding more expenses like traps and such to the equasion doesn't exactly make it cheaper
 
Poster: strogg
Date Posted: 08 December 2011, 13:02pm
Re: Town Defences
How does the construction skill work ? Does the character with this skill have to hold the building materials when you build ? Does a level 10 construction skill character always get a bonus when building ? When you do get a bonus for the building does it show it as a defence point bonus ? Is it worth having more than one character with this skill ? Does it stack ? Do dwarves build better than elves ?    :P
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 08 December 2011, 19:57pm
Re: Town Defences
The bonus is less resources required, and yes it stacks.
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 10 December 2011, 03:44am
Re: Town Defences
Guards should now be added to the town as soon as they are trained.
 
Poster: Sartain
Date Posted: 25 December 2011, 09:51am
Re: Town Defences
After weeks of testing, it's my final impression that the defense overhaul does very little to change the mechanics of high-level warfare, except now you have to have gold in the millions to fund defenses and raiding/scorched earth tactics are still the most viable. Now you just conquer a town, fire all the crazy expensive guards, empty the coffers and leave it to rot.

The features implemented certainly adds some elements to the game, but once parties reach level 20+ it's my impression it makes no difference.
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 27 December 2011, 00:45am
Re: Town Defences
OK thanks... I'll be working on balancing this more in the new year.
 
Poster: ooli
Date Posted: 04 January 2012, 13:00pm
Re: Town Defences
Story of my 130 HP mayor with 5 garrisoned character (the best from my base team) and 2 elites guards in a town with 10 traps:
Round 3 : Mayor dead. Killed by Flame Spell as usual.

I still thing you improved the defense a lot. If a town could afford to have 30 Elite Guard ( 300 000 gold anyway  :-[ ) and you're lucky enough for the invader to not find your mayor right at the beginning. You can keep the mayor alive a bit cause those Elite Guard could kill anything. But once the invader put his hand on a mayor usually the mayor is as good as dead.

The problem being that you have to invest a shitload of gold and anyone lucky with sneak could eventually come and kill your mayor and worse: delete all your Elite guard investment in one clic. And I dont think any town could paid the 4000 gold upkeep for 25 Elite guard without you funding the town.

I like the way you implement town defense: you focus on making a raid painful (trap + guard + try limited ) instead of making a mayor Un-killable (even a high agility mayor will go down with  bash shield, critical hit,  and Flame spell which he have no protection against).

It's just that the guard cost need balancing, and should not being canceled with just a "Fire guard" button :
May be you can only fired a said amount of guard / day : 30 rookies or 10 Seasoned or 4 Veteran or 1 Elite. And lower the cost of elite guard a bit so the richest player here could afford to have , let say, 30 Elite guard in at least 5 town without the need to fund these town each day .
If at any time raid become too difficult, you just have to make the Sneak option more effective and mayors will die again as usual.


 
Poster: deityrox
Date Posted: 05 January 2012, 00:35am
Re: Town Defences
It would be interesting to add the ability to collect protection from all cities (the player himself or his kingdom) and distribute it to the city that most need it.
 
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