Forum

Poster: ooli
Date Posted: 15 February 2012, 04:06am
Kingdoms , need purpose
After talking with a few people which left the game, after a few month playing, like me in the past, , I came to the conclusion that this awesome game lack something to live to its promise.

There are a few flaws that hinder the appealing of the game as a whole. Game lag (I use like 1 hour to spend 750 turn), garrison are a real chore to maintain, etc.. Those are details.

The main problem imho is that the game get old very fast for the stuff rpg lover like to do in rpg (improvement, gearing, questing)
-character improvement end at lvl 25 (reachable in a couple month)
-Kingdom creation can be done during the same time
-quests are useless past the level 5-8
-gears/blacksmith hunting is the more hard to fulfill. Anyway you can get decent gears pretty fast. But actually that's the strong point of the game.

I fully understand that those 3 points are not the purpose of the game which is kingdom fighting (hence the name). So I'm perfectly OK if they stay as they are.
But actually, as a player, you get really few incentive to go into kingdom wars.

Of course it's great to see our kingdom grow and stuff. But once you get past the self-esteem boost, you're doomed.

From the top of my head here are a few stuff that can increase the game appeal:
- give new stuff to kingdom player (ie: access to build new building reserved to that kingdom, by finding kingdom plan in dungeon; town entry Tax exempt for all kingdomers; a way to choose monster roaming kingdom owned land ... Anything new that Mutant can think of)
-give an incentive, either to have a larger kingdom, and/or to crush other kingdom. I know it could get bad very fast, as player will tend to abuse if there is anything worthwhile to gain and overreact to anything worthwhile they could loose. But just a few turn boost/ day to each kingdomer in the first ranked kingdom, and a few turn less in the second, third, etc ...
-to balance that, a way to allow internal struggle in kingdom. Either a vote , a fight every month, a set of weird condition, anything to change the ruler. Or allowing under-ruler with part of the king/queen power, so other player doesnt feel worthless in a kingdom.

Anyway, it wont solve the problem about player level 8-10 which seems to be the level where player tend to quit the game. For that , I suggest fewer town-quest  but with greater appeal (ie: destroying 5 orbs for 50 000 gold)

good luck, and long live this game.



 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 15 February 2012, 20:32pm
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
You are right in that the long-term playability of the game is not in traditional RPG elements. I could easily extend the level cap and add level 5 and 6 dungeons (with new monsters), but that would just be more of the same.

Instead, the focus after a certain point is on strategy and politics. (There will be other things in the future as well, but right now these are the main things). One really important point in this is that it cannot be limited to people who are monarchs. This is only ever going to be a small subset of players, and I don't want a game that's only fun after the first couple of months for 10 people. So, although running a kingdom should be fun, it should be possible to enjoy the game for a long time without even aspiring to be king/queen.

Anyway, one of the main things holding back the strategic and political elements was how town defences worked. Because it was impossible to defend a town, there was not much point in it. That may now have been fixed, but it'll take a long time for players to adjust, and someone to start trying to take chunks out of the established kingdoms. There are also strategies that people haven't even begun to explore (e.g. buildings in the wilderness are pretty valuable and useful - no one has exploited this yet AFAIK). And there will continue to be smaller tweaks (such as treaties, etc. built into the game, and as you suggest, probably some way to take over a kingdom) that'll encourage this type of play.
 
Poster: ooli
Date Posted: 16 February 2012, 11:00am
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
Thanks to you for  taking time addressing my concern.

[quote author=Mutant link=topic=201.msg1817#msg1817 date=1329337948]
I could easily extend the level cap and add level 5 and 6 dungeons (with new monsters), but that would just be more of the same.
[/quote]
You're right.
May be use those lvl 5-6 dungeons as an exceptionnal event, like for christmas, or Halloween. People love event, it make anything more appealing.


Quote:

So, although running a kingdom should be fun, it should be possible to enjoy the game for a long time without even aspiring to be king/queen.

Right. I hope you have ideas to address that.

Quote:
There are also strategies that people haven't even begun to explore (e.g. buildings in the wilderness are pretty valuable and useful - no one has exploited this yet AFAIK).


WHAT!! For me wilderness tower is not worthy cause:
[list type=decimal]
[li] Your garrison can be crushed by any level passing by. Stronger Player essentially as you dont use high level in garrison [/li]
[li] Anyone spot your garrison more easily[/li]
[li] The puny +4/+10 defense bonus hardly worth the risk taken[/li]
[/list]
If you implemented secret bonus like more monster attack, or higher level monster attack, or better item drop, or more gold drop, or nearest town better approval,  I never heard about it. And I doubt it compensate for the risk taken in building a wilderness tower for garrison. And if you dont get garrison in tower, it will last even shorter.



 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 16 February 2012, 19:47pm
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
On garrisons: you're forgetting building add-ons.....

Also important: buildings claim land for a kingdom if the kingdom owns them. And that land can't be claimed back unless you take the building (or raze it).

There are a few other tweaks to buildings/garrisons to come as well.
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 23 February 2012, 06:37am
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
I have been thinking a bit more about mid-levels (around 8-14), and you might be right that they need more to do... you can't really hold towns, garrisons can be risky (although some tweaks around that coming soon), and you really need a way of making cash to get into the next part of the game... the only option right now is to grind it out in dungeons, which by that stage can already be getting a bit boring....
 
Poster: Zangi
Date Posted: 23 February 2012, 14:27pm
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
At that stage, you are kind of stuck at level 2 dungeons... yea... maybe a few 'boss' battles with some level 3 dungeon creatures.  My guys are kitted out with +3200 gold armor and weapons.  (I've still yet to pay for the 6.4k upgrade on most of the equipment.)

Full team of veteran guards at this stage are 'boss' battles for me.
 
Poster: ooli
Date Posted: 23 February 2012, 14:55pm
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
1/ Town Election: Actually it is restricted to level 15 character. You can put that down.
That could be a cool way to get a town with already decent defense without risk and without investing too much money. Perfect for level 8-14 parties who want to get a town. The election may also depend of the popularity of the party: You make every quest of that town, you get better chance to be elected, even with less money spent.

2/ Quests : May be some new middle tier quest. As I said, quests are actually useless after lvl 8 already. That's a shame. Everybody like quest. I still take some just for the sake of having a goal to reach. With a decent reward it could be an alternative to dungeon grinding.

3/ Map discovery. I remember being bored once, and just decided to explore all the map. It took me a few day, and was fun to do. May be some map discovery specific gameplay could be worthwhile. But I cant think of anything except some new quest, and I think discovery worth more than that.

4/ Less grind or more different grind in fact.
Money is useful for anything but you can only get it in dungeon's treasure chest. Every other mean I can think of (Wilderness monster, quest,  town management, kingdom tax) is a waste.
So putting time and money into anything else than dungeon chest hunt is not worthy in the end. An awesome new feature would be crafting I suppose : from clay, iron, wood, stone (crafted from basic stuff found in wilderness) to enchanted weapons and armors. Something player should spend a lot of turn into (and no money at all) but that can earn them some money from other player by selling specific stuff (every mayor will have to build iron and stone). After that you open up a new gameplay with player being shop owner in town (for level 8-14) and selling crafted stuff.
Ok, I'm a bit dreaming here, cause those stuff should be long to code and balance well.


Anyway, you got great concepts : Orb spawning monster, tower building, election in town, reputation in town, boss in dungeon (still bugged) ; But it all fall down in front of the benefit of chest grinding. An overhaul of this concept could do the trick to give new gameplay for mid level parties.
ie: Org growing , spawning hardest mob and greater reward when destroyed (like the uber boss item); Boss that only appear via quest, like the artifact quest; Reputation in town that dont reset after town changing mayor and reducing blacksmith price (even just a bit). Having the best reputation in every town could be a feat I would try to reach.

Good luck dude.

 
Poster: deityrox
Date Posted: 23 February 2012, 20:35pm
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
[quote author=ooli link=topic=201.msg1854#msg1854 date=1330008931]
1/ Town Election:[/quote]
The last time I ran, then stood limitation - the candidate must be at least 8 levels.

Quote:
4/
Money is useful for anything but you can only get it in dungeon's treasure chest. Every other mean I can think of (Wilderness monster, quest,  town management, kingdom tax) is a waste.

Now only 2 Dungeon Level 4. At one may not be money chests, and in another 50 000 in the trunks. Most likely, someone will get lucky and get all of them. With a 50% chance it'll be me :-D . A city is a stable income, and, believe me, it is worth their investment.
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 23 February 2012, 20:38pm
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
You can earn a lot from towns if you run it right (especially using the Leadership skill).
 
Poster: ooli
Date Posted: 24 February 2012, 11:16am
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
[quote author=deityrox link=topic=201.msg1862#msg1862 date=1330029325]

The last time I ran, then stood limitation - the candidate must be at least 8 levels.[/quote]

I tried, and it only accepted level 15 characters. BUT my only character below 15 was just a guy (level13) I did bough on the sole purpose to participate in the election. May be the "just bough" caused a problem somehow. But I did fight around with him, even leveling him up to  14 and he was still not eligible.


Quote:

Now only 2 Dungeon Level 4. At one may not be money chests, and in another 50 000 in the trunks. Most likely, someone will get lucky and get all of them. With a 50% chance it'll be me :-D . A city is a stable income, and, believe me, it is worth their investment.


Yeah Market does a good job on town-money. But like garrison, it is not very gameplay intensive: The town might be taken and you lost anything you've invested in it. And the return is still not that great. The good point is that once the town get rolling you just have to go get the money from time to time. My point is actually if you want to get money from town you actually have to dungeon grind beforehand.
It would be great if a low-mid level could take a struggling town and raise its prosperity and approval rating without having to invest shitload of money in it. By doing quest , destroying nearby orbs, clearing the mobs around, even using town facilities should help.
May be some sort of new "Prosperity quest" only available to mayor: The same as normal quest but with instant prosperity or approval reward instead of low xp and cheap gold.
 
Poster: Zangi
Date Posted: 25 February 2012, 07:47am
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
I've actually managed to bring a 1 prosperity town up to 20-something.  And a 30-something up to 50-something. 

Ain't too hard, I just need more gold to be able to push it higher... albeit, its taken me a few weeks doing it on budget and well recent disturbances has set progress back.
 
Poster: Mutant
Date Posted: 26 February 2012, 01:28am
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
I've got a few ideas for mid-level quests....
 
Poster: zzzker
Date Posted: 27 February 2012, 01:54am
Re: Kingdoms , need purpose
would be cool to have some different simple governments, ie monarchy with just a king/queen, a democracy so that if your king dies you dont have to be stuck with a NPC...etc